Mountain Multi-Cultural Multi-Faith Group

Neil posted this over on the Christian thread ("for the bible tells me so" thread I think) and I felt it worth discussing, so I spirited it over to here, where any and all are invited to comment, if they so chose

We often see what we believe already exists - and we can be blind to what we cannot come to face - thereby creating our own reality - to some extent.

...gonna ramble here so bare with me

We often see what we believe already exists

We often see what we believe already exists.

First off, what is belief?

from http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/belief

Main Entry:
be·lief
Pronunciation:
\bə-ˈlēf\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English beleave, probably alteration of Old English gelēafa, from ge-, associative prefix + lēafa; akin to Old English lȳfan — more at believe
Date:
12th century

1: a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing

2: something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group

3: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence

Let's run with the first definition of belief...a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing.

There are many people and many faiths in the world who place their trust, their confidence in a person or a thing and most times that person or thing is outside themselves. They do not challenge that person or thing, but blindly accept and we don't have to look too far to see much evidence of this action. And for an example of this, let's use the FLDS and their faith in polygamy (don't want to be accused to picking on anyone in particular here on ROTW )

So, if we often see what we believe, is not the action of seeing based or biased by what we chose or what we are led to believe? The children from the FLDS compound have never been exposed to the "outside" world. Their belief's are fed to them and guarded by isolation. But isolation can come in many forms as can faith be preached with an iron fist and command unwavering allegiance. Is this belief then true existance? Or is it a created reality? Is this existing calculated and manipulated to render a particular belief? Or, does the belief create a reality? Which comes first...chicken or egg??

and we can be blind to what we cannot come to face

...very true! No one person, faith, ideology, conviction, philosophy or lifestyle on this earth is immune from this concept.

thereby creating our own reality - to some extent.

Bingo! And there is no "to some extent" at all.

We all create our own reality outside the "natural laws" that exist on this plane in this dimension. Then, if we are zealous enough, we seek to power over those who do not subscribe enough to their own reality...or if they do, then we go to war and kill and conquer and replace their reality with our own. The reality of the FLDS is that they would like to be left alone to continue with their brand of Christianity, without the interference of anyone telling them that they are wrong. Many people request that dynamic to be extended to them...hell...even this country was founded on the principles that one could practice one's own religious reality without the interference or persecution for anyone else.


We often see what we believe already exists - and we can be blind to what we cannot come to face - thereby creating our own reality - to some extent.

That, Neil, is about the only thing you and I will ever spiritually agree upon (minus the "to some extent" ...but I have a feeling that it will be for vastly differing reasons

okay...enough rambling for now....and more coffee!!

oops...two booboos...

hell...even this country was founded on the principles that one could practice one's own religious reality without the interference or persecution for anyone else.

...should say from anyone else.

and

That, Neil, is about the only thing you and I will ever spiritually agree upon (minus the "to some extent"

...should not have a winkie smilie there...lest Sabro think I am being flippant or condescending...

As much as I would like to agree with you on this one, I am still a firm believer in an objective material reality... one that can be measured objectively that is subject to a predictable set of rules and laws. Certainly our focus determines our own subjective perception of reality and that is a function of our individual...pre-conceptions and biases that "reticular activating system" in our mid-brain... But I also believe that we should adjust our perceptions and be willing to abandon old concepts and bias when they fail to function or to match what is material and concrete.

I can think of much better things to do with your time Willa.....Like talking to me....Party at my house tonight....get on your witchy broom and stop by Misses you!

Miss you more than I could ever say.....

Misssing all my friends from the MC/MF group! You're the best!

Well I just read this today.

How ya doin' Willow?

Let me introduce one thought, it probably won't take but here it is.

What if that "Person or thing outside yourself" actually shows up in a powerful way and makes an intervention in your life that is a thousand times more powerful than any self generated placebo effect could ever be?

The language you use leads me to believe that ultimately your beliefs pretty much begin and end with yourself. Because even though you acknowledge Pagan dieties - at the end of the day you're still kind of pantheistically melded with them as well.

While philisophically satisfying to someone of your mindset - it seems you don't prefer believing in an outside person of God that is truly a separate being from you. You seem pretty convinced that believing in a God that is completely separate and unique from yourself demonstrates a lower level of understanding and awareness.

That indicates to me that you have not experienced a powerful encounter with a being that is outside of yourself, wholly separate and unique but rather something else. It seems that your spiritual experiences up to this point do not provoke you to abandon self worship in favor of an overwhelming revelation of a God that is so great that you would truly desire to dethrone self and worship and enthrone one who is greater than you. Therefore I am left to believe that my God is immensely greater than what you worship.

Without a doubt, the two most numerous and powerful biblical descriptors of God is that he is Holy and then also that he is love. His holiness is a separate attribute from just his righteousness. Holiness is not synonymous with righteousness - though there are some overlapping charecteristics. His Holiness in a deeper sense is in fact his "otherness' from us and every other living creation.

It was that "otherness" that blew me away and made me realize that to worship him was different than worshipping any other thing in the universe. Everything else was merely desperate idolotry - a lowering of one created being to worship another merely created being.

I willingly (though not perfectly) surrender to that other being - because of the awesome nature and power and beauty of that being. Because of his Holiness [or "Otherness"] of God - I willingly worship and follow him.

This is a huge issue on which we differ.

Neil

BTW - when are you gonna get back down in these parts? I think it's high time we meet face to face and have a cup of coffee or somethin'. I was vacationing up in the Oregon Coast and WOWWWW! Got some incredible picts that I'm gonna post on my myspace site pretty soon.

Hi Neil...just got home from the long weekend, so give me a wee moment to read over your post and I'll get back to you. We should be home soon....ish. The INS cashed the fees, so it's only a matter of time now

okay now....I have my green tea and a slice of rhubarb pie and I am good to go!

Well I just read this today.

How ya doin' Willow?

I am doing very, very well, thank you for asking How are you these days?

Let me introduce one thought, it probably won't take but here it is.

What if that "Person or thing outside yourself" actually shows up in a powerful way and makes an intervention in your life that is a thousand times more powerful than any self generated placebo effect could ever be?

I wouldn't know about that. The powerful influence in my life is no placebo But I can understand your need to regard my relationship with the Sacred Divine as a placebo, otherwise you would have to re-evaluate your spiritual outlook.


The language you use leads me to believe that ultimately your beliefs pretty much begin and end with yourself. Because even though you acknowledge Pagan dieties - at the end of the day you're still kind of pantheistically melded with them as well.

I have no need to look outside myself for the Sacred Divine. And I see the Sacred Divine in Jesus just as much as in Allah and Buddha and Kali and Hecate and Herne and in you and in every other creature that lives and grows and dies and is reborn.

While philisophically satisfying to someone of your mindset - it seems you don't prefer believing in an outside person of God that is truly a separate being from you. You seem pretty convinced that believing in a God that is completely separate and unique from yourself demonstrates a lower level of understanding and awareness.

No...my spiritual practice is not a matter of being philosophically satisfied. I am called to serve. I believe that others of completely different spiritual faiths are called to serve and it is not for me to judge their call nor is it for me to ascertain what they are aware of or understand or at what "level". What would spiritual "level" be, anyways?? And why do you put a finite measure on something infinite?

That indicates to me that you have not experienced a powerful encounter with a being that is outside of yourself, wholly separate and unique but rather something else. It seems that your spiritual experiences up to this point do not provoke you to abandon self worship in favor of an overwhelming revelation of a God that is so great that you would truly desire to dethrone self and worship and enthrone one who is greater than you. Therefore I am left to believe that my God is immensely greater than what you worship.

That's very grandiose of you.

No, my relationship with the Sacred Divine is as much as part of me as the water that swims in my cells, the air that I breathe, the fire of passion in my soul, as solid as the earth I walk on and worship, as high as the unconditional love that wraps around me. Take those things away and I. am. not.

Your god thrives on being powerful. My gods thrive on walking in me while I journey this lifetime.

Without a doubt, the two most numerous and powerful biblical descriptors of God is that he is Holy and then also that he is love. His holiness is a separate attribute from just his righteousness. Holiness is not synonymous with righteousness - though there are some overlapping charecteristics. His Holiness in a deeper sense is in fact his "otherness' from us and every other living creation.

It was that "otherness" that blew me away and made me realize that to worship him was different than worshipping any other thing in the universe. Everything else was merely desperate idolotry - a lowering of one created being to worship another merely created being.

I understand that this is the way you resonate with the Sacred Divine. But for me, if I were forced to believe your way, in your god, this would leave me cold. The higher power has been with me always and will be no matter what I am or what I do. There is no judgment. There is no punishment. There is no separation, ever. Thank Goddess

I willingly (though not perfectly) surrender to that other being - because of the awesome nature and power and beauty of that being. Because of his Holiness [or "Otherness"] of God - I willingly worship and follow him.

This is a huge issue on which we differ.

You are so very right about this

I can't imagine going back and worshiping the way I did when I was a Christian. I have grown so much since then, but grown in the way that is best for me. I make no call about how anyone else is to worship. Just as there are trillions upon trillions of species of life on this planet and, indeed, throughout the universe, there are just as many ways have a relationship with the Sacred Divine.

peace
Willow

I can't imagine going back and worshiping the way I did when I was a Christian. I have grown so much since then, but grown in the way that is best for me.

You grew away Willow.
That is your God given freedom of thought and choice.

PEACE

I grew away from the dogma of Christianity, yes.

I took around 1500 picts up in oregon. AMAZING!!! Within a day or two I'll post a short list of pict on my myspace page.

Looking forward to seeing them

OK - picts are up